I along with many other people scoffed and scorned when news broke that the UFC had signed aging pro boxer James “Lights Out” Toney to a fight with UFC legend and former Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion Randy Couture. My strongest initial reaction consisted of little more than “Randy Couture + Takedowns = Win”. That belief, that Couture’s wrestling will be far too much for James Toney to handle, seems to be the one almost everyone is betting on. But now that their showdown is little more than a month away, I find myself leaning towards “Lights Out” more and more.
One of my biggest reasons for this drastic change in opinion is the simple fact that Randy Couture hasn’t looked all that great in his recent return to the Octagon. Couture will always be one of the most talented men to have ever stepped inside of the Octagon, and you’ll never see me try to argue that. But the ageless wonder is beginning to show his age. Couture is 2-2 in his most recent stint inside the UFC, and even his two wins honestly didn’t impress me. In the Brandon Vera fight, he edged out a really close (but Unanimous) decision win that I know for a fact many fans disagreed with. In the Mark Coleman fight, Coleman showed up demoralized and a ghost of his former self. I truly believe that Coleman had lost that fight before he ever stepped inside the Octagon. In fact, I would be willing to bet anything that if anyone else in the world with even one-fourth of Couture’s talent had taken Couture’s place against the Mark Coleman that showed up at UFC 109, that person would have beaten Coleman just as decisively.
Also, let’s not forget that six of his ten career losses have come from the hands of his opponents: FIVE (T)KO’s and one submission due to strikes. Couture has been on the receiving end of several highlight-reel knockouts, and in three of his last four fights, all of his opponents came close to stopping him (only current UFC Heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar proved able to). With that fact firmly in your head, take the following into consideration: James Toney has been boxing professionally for over twenty years! And in those twenty years, he’s lost only six times. No matter how crazy you think he sounds in his interviews or how doomed to failure you think he may be, the man has an astonishing forty-four knockouts on his pro boxing resume. Most people admit that Toney has a “puncher’s chance”, when what they really mean is that Toney only has a shot at winning this fight is if he gets extremely lucky. Newsflash, people: it’s only going to take one punch. If Toney lands decently even once, he’ll do more than daze Couture. He’ll knock him clean out.
Plus Couture has never had pure knockout power, and if his recent fights are any indicator, his punching power is actually starting to go down. Add to all that the fact that Toney has never been (T)KO’d once. Not a single time. In over twenty tears. Couture will always have his dominant wrestling to fall back on, but consider this fact as well: this is going to be a Heavyweight fight, and Couture has always been a small Heavyweight. Toney will more than likely show up to this fight heavier than Couture, meaning that Couture will have to work hard and consistently work hard to score his takedowns. If Toney can make Couture work for every single takedown, that opens Couture up for more and more counter-punches. And that’s the beauty of this fight: Toney has fifteen minutes to land only one punch.
Some people think that the odds of Toney winning are ludicrous. I think the odds of Toney not landing one good punch in the span of fifteen minutes are ludicrous. It’ll send shockwaves up and down the MMA landscape, but 2010 has been the year of the epic upset. And Randy Couture is getting knocked out.
But that’s all my opinion, fans and friends. How do you see this fight going down?
I Regret Nothing: Randy Couture Obliterates James Toney
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@MMAMessiah
Very well put.
Why do people continue to comment that Toney would KO Couture in a boxing match. Do you know how pathetic that makes you sound? You are saying Toney could beat Couture in a “fight” if Couture wasn’t allowed to kick, wrestle, clinch, elbow, use takedowns and knees. That is like me saying I can beat Lebron James in “basketball” if we are just shooting freethrows.
MMA allows Toney to take his entire skill set to the octagon…and he lost.
hahaha. god i had to relook up this article just to see the pwn that would ensue
@Broozer
Actually Toney is not a legitimate title holder, the Klitschko brothers hold all 3 of the legit titles. That being said Toney not only is a washed up boxer who has done a nice chunk of losing and super poor boring performances as of late, he’s a nutball for thinking he could beat Randy even if Toney was in his prime. Elite boxers are better athletes because they spend millions of dollars on training camps cause they get paid way more money, but if they want to compete in the cage they better spend a couple years practicing take down defense and working on that sprawl. Better learn how to counter grapple too cause take down defense don’t always work and you need another plan.
If the day comes that MMA fighters make as much as elite boxers then MMA will have just as good athletes and elite strategic strikers like the Mayweathers and Pacquiao’s. Until then they have to settle for guys that circle eachother throwing a punch every 25 seconds that falls about a foot short of the opponent. Either way you’re a dumbass James Toney, I’d say you embarrassed boxing but you been doing that for years now with your failed steroid tests, not making weight and the cut of your gib.
I think Brock Lessnar would destroy any boxer in less than 30 seconds.
Toney was not even able to walk good..his steps where heavy and slow. He was way overweight, early brain damage, and hasn’t had a major win in boxing in several years. This fight proved very little. A good mma fighter should beat a good boxer in a mma fight…but toney iis barley good anymore.
Wondering if this is still your opinion lol
Well you got that as wrong as you possibly could!!!!!!!!, When i heard toney was in the ufc i had to laugh!hahahahahahahahahahahaha! hey ive always been a lights out fan. but what was he thinking? MMA DOMINATES boxing……… always will!!!!!!!!!!!!…. i was an amatuer boxer for 6 years till i found mma. and i soon realised studying in vale tudo(mma these days) u had every advantage over someone who only studies one disapline.PERIOD! Hat of to toney for havn the balls to get in there when all the others wouldnt tho! I hope toney trains on his over all game cuz id like to see him do better next time. if he dont get the sack that is! and if james wants to talk trash bout mma again, LETS FUCKING GIVE HIM SHANE CARWIN! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Oh, how sweet this is!!!!! Somebodie’s eating a big-ol’ slice of Humble Pie today!
I don’t think its fair for anyone who wasn’t brave enough to post BEFORE the fight to come in here and mock Oliver for being so offbase with his article. Its easy to look smart AFTER the fight. And anyone who didn’t think James had a shot of winning is either stupid or a liar. He absolutely had a helluva better chance of winning a MMA fight against Randy than Randy would have in a boxing match against James. James’s boxing skills transfer much better to MMA than Randy’s grappling transfers to the ring.
I cannot state how happy I am with the outcome of this fight after James ran his mouth like he always does. And even though Randy made it look so easy, I still think this ranks as one of Randy’s BEST fights, if not THE best fight, of his career because of his advanced age of 47 and the talent of his opposition. James may not be an MMa guy but he certainly is a REAL badass and a REAL fighter. James is a downright scary dude and Randy embarrassed him in front of a zillion people. Keep in mind that ALL the pressure was on Randy. It truly was a lose-lose proposition for Randy. The whole world was saying he would walk thru a man who has NEVER been walked thru before in over 80 professional fights.
Saturday night was definately one for the “Good guys.” Both main event fights featured a talented, hard working, humble and disciplined fighter against an opponent with insane God-given talent that is only matched by their insane lack of discipline and insane inflated ego. Great job, Randy and Frankie!
I find it ironic that you state that Toney is an (over the hill boxer) even though he is currently a title holder. Cotoure, who is older than Toney, is not at the top of MMA game. Face it Toney, with his talent in the single discilpline of boxing is no match for a man that is older than him and is equal accomplishments in MMA.
i found it hilarious that joe rogan had an obvious contempt for toney and was bad mouthing him the entire match. normally he sticks up for the fighter losing to make it seem more exciting but this time he just pointed out toneys lack of skills. i lold
: )
@Bud Fallon
Bud the difference is Couture wasn’t bad mouthing boxing and doesn’t claim to be a boxer. Toney ran his mouth and got what he deserved. No single art will work against a true mma practicioner. Boxing is just what it is. Just like karate, judo, wrestling or muay thai. Walking into the cage with one style ensures a one sided bout as we saw last evening.
Ummm…..yeah ok. So…how bout that vicious punch that James Toney landed in….oh yeah, in the pipe dream that is your article?
What all of us MMA fans knew would happen, did happen. James Toney got his lights TURNED OFF! Now…we MMA fans love and respect boxing for the sport it is, and the essential part that it plays in being a complete fighter.
That said…boxing has been bad mouthing MMA for a long time, whether it is James Toney or any number of promoters and fighters like Mayweather. The question has been emphatically answered – if you’re going into combat, you take MMA with you, not boxing. In the battle of boxing versus MMA, MMA rules. It’s no better or worse a sport, it’s just more practical for beating somebody up.
James Phoney had a embarrassing match. I couldn’t help but laugh at the lack of knowlegde on the ground he had. – ither way, couture showed him what MMA is.
James Toney does hit hard. He hit the floor VERY hard. Boxing is finished. They only people who will be boxing in 10 years are those that aren’t good enough for MMA.
This is a ridiculous argument. Toney had as much a chance of beating Randy in an MMA style fight as Randy would have in a Boxing match with Toney. Toney would actually knock Randy out even quicker than RAndy was able to submit him in this fight. MMA fighters have to learn to deal with striking, most not as good as a James Toney but Boxers never have to train for being “tackled” doesnt happen and is not even part of the strategy. Infact once Toney stepped into that octagon he was no longer Boxing, he was MMA fighter with great boxing skills and extremely limited in every other aspect of MMA. He had a punchers chance yes but Its hard for a boxer to throw punches at his ankles, not how they train. The real question is who would be the best fighter in “street” style or no rules just FIGHT! I believe this would be an individual case scenerio. In this fight eye gouging, biting and strikes to the groin could all be used. This changes everything. I do tend to believe the wrestling foundation has an advantage, just feel its easier to take someones legs then for a boxer to punch at knee height. This is assuming the wrestler has trained to avoide getting punched. Once on the ground even though a wrestler including Randy has limited punching power he will be able to control the fight.
lol TO ANY PERSON WHO THOUGHT BIG FAT TONEY EVEN HAD A PUNCHERS CHANCE!! Seriously. A boxer will lose the majority of the time to a wrestler. The amount of disrespect to Couture in some of these posts is mindblowing. Really now, you thought a big fat no legged boxer was going to demolish Randy Couture in an MMA contest lol My lord, turn the hype for the fight off and stop listening to interviews. Toney without a doubt is a great boxer. But he isn’t the hardest hitter Couture has faced, but he was the least qualified that’s a fact. I’m not purely hating on Toney, I’m just kicking you potheads some knowledge. lol at TONEYS face when COUTURE single legged him with zero effort and showed all the nonbelievers what everyone with fighting experience already knew lolol Doesn’t matter Toneys age, fitness or desire, he may never have been a great MMA fighter even if he started at 20. He’s a great boxer, but he might not have the fight IQ to coordinate the blend of skills needed to be great. I actually felt bad for Toney. He should never been allowed to embarrass himself like that. A damn shame to watch someone who has accomplished so much in his sport get humiliated by the first move i learned in wrestling when I was 7 years old:( Lights out buddy!
@Oliver Saenz
*GASPS*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… Wait for it…… HAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@Oliver Saenz
You could hear the fan’s screaming when Randy Left the mount to finalize the choke. I am so proud of the Fan’s from Boston! They know more about MMA than Oliver.
Oh, and Oliver, no name calling or bickering, but, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
dennis glee, you do realize the fight was already over when you made your post? And you do realize that Toney is younger than Couture and finally Couture would do the same thing to Tyson that he did to Toney. And you could probably bring any heavyweight in his prime into the octagon with Couture and get the same outcome.
Just a bunch of dumb boxing fans not wanting to admit that boxing is a SPORT and mma is a FIGHT! Dont bring a knife to a shotgun fight….
@Denis Slee
Lmao about toney beating coutore. Just lmao it wasnt even close
I’ve been a boxing fan all my life and the argument of wrestlers/kickboxers/boxers has been going on for as long as I can remember. I’ve actually heard people say in all seriousness that Bruce Lee would have beaten Mohamed Ali. Really? You believe that?
I think James Toney is smart enough to know what he is doing I don’t think Randy Couture does know what he is doing. If this Couture is that convinced he can beat a top flight boxer then fight one. James is past his sell by date for sure. Why doesn’t Randy tangle up with David Haye? Or get the moth balls off Mike Tyson. I don’t think Randy Couture would like that idea, do you?
We must also remember James is not a heavyweight boxer. Sure he has fought at that limit but his real weight is around 170 pounds. But he has always punched above his weight. That is going to be a huge problem for Couture and, also, he’s not used to being hit by a boxer. It will be a shock when it happens. I also think James is a serious natural athlete so to change his moves like to that of a wrestler will not be as hard as we think, or you think as I think Toney will adapt quicker than people are going to expect.
My gut feeling for this match up is it could be a walk in the park for James. Can’t see him losing. I’ve seen him over the years and his talent is immense. You didn’t have to teach James Toney to fight you can see it’s in his make up. It’s in his very relaxed and fluid way he conducts himself in the ring. This pairing will go on until James gets tired of it all and wants to go home.
And some people say that this MMA sport is nearer to street fighting than boxing. That’s probably true but I have the idea that Mr. James Toney will have an idea about how to do that.
Gwapo.
Guess your prediction was wrong buddy. Taken down within 20 seconds.
@ author” ARE YOU INSANE! For the rest of the people who just watched the very predictable james vs randy fight, the obvious just happened: Randy couture forced james toney to tap out within just 3 minutes. how’s that for boxing vs mma
As long as the fight lasts, Couture will always be in danger of being KOed. If he can’t put Toney on his back easily, it’s lights out for him. He’s never been hit by a hitter like Toney.
J, you make alot of good points. One that you touched on but just didn’t specifically state is that Randy, like most great Greco guys, are simply insanely strong. Two questions left for tomorrow night:
1) Can Randy get James to the ground without going to sleep? and
2) Does James even have enough of a neck for Randy to wrap around and choke? And I am only half joking on this one!!!
BTW, I honestly can’t remember Randy ever kicking. Can someone give me some info on Randy’s abilities with kicks.
And I saw an interview with Randy yesterday…he definately has the right game plan. He acknowledged that his usual aggressive style will NOT work with James’ dangerous counterpunching style. That is good to hear. Let’s also hope he is well aware that if he does clinch with James, he better lock both arms and not give James even an inch to get his fist through with an uppercut or its going to be a quick and easy night for James Toney.
The more I reflect, the more dangerous Toney seems. Perhaps that is simply because I want Couture to win, and am now imagining scenarios of how that might not happen.
Anyway, my suspicion is that Couture can get in on Toney with relatively little problem. Toney won’t be stupid enough to charge, but Couture is a master of the cage. If Toney goes down, expect Randy to sink a choke (Anaconda, Guillotine or Rear Naked). In my mind, this is the most inevitable outcome of the fight.
I don’t see how Toney will be able to stop Randy from choking him. Not a sophisticated jiu-jitsu choke from the guard, but virtually any manner of choke, given Randy’s experience and Toney’s inexperience. In the end, I believe the odds favor Randy by a choke submission over a quick knockout by Toney.
The more I think about it — the more I am convinced this is the result.
Rock:
Toney might be great in a boxing ring. This is a cage. The difference even among established MMA practitioners is astounding — see Pride vs. UFC and how different fighters styles are neutralized by entering a cage vs. a ring. Thus, while I agree with much of your post, saying that it is a tie in ring generalship is tough for me to buy.
Randy is probably the greatest cage general in MMA history. Toney might be a smart fighter as well, but that is in a boxing ring, not the cage. Advantage has to go to Randy. This is only buttressed by the fact that cages favor wrestlers immensely.
In a cage, Randy can literally shoot a strong double, and even if stuffed, push Toney into the cage, drop down for another double and pick up Toney. If Toney goes ass down against the cage, watch for a quick guillotine and it’s over.
Also, while Toney is big, he is not nearly as big as Lesnar. Randy dealt very well with Lesnar’s strength in the clinch. I think Randy will simply clinch, and not let go (think Rulon Gardner here). And Toney can’t throw an uppercut with Randy’s arms wrapped around him. Randy knows this and will likely initiate a sweep or inside leg trip from the clinch, if not any variant of a hip toss. Then, yet again, submission via choke.
As much as I love Randy and it is his “backyard” since its MMA, I still feel people are discounting too many things about James’s chances of winning.
1) Age – Randy is 47 years old and is in top shape. But he is STILL 47 years old. James is 42 but he still is younger by 5 years. Advantage Toney
2) Reflexes – James still has fast hands but has always been more of a counterpuncher than a seek and destroy guy. Randy has been slowing down the last few years. He does not seem as explosive as he once was on the ground or on his feet. Advantage Toney
3) Striking – Randy has never been known for his smooth and/or powerful striking game. James is as fluid as water. And the fact that James is a counter puncher who is used to punching as a reaction to his opponent’s aggressiveness will serve him well against a charging Randy. Advantage Toney
4) Ring Generalship – James is more at home in the ring then he is anywhere else. He loves to fight. He may be the most calm fighter ever. Add his calmness to his unlimited boxing talent, his 25 plus years of experience and he is truly a Master. His boxing skills are beautiful to watch. Randy is a very intellegent fighter. He always comes to fight and does whatever he has to do to win. He has always made up for holes in his game with a solid game plan, solid training and a consistent pressure. He also has the ability to rise to the occasion and likes challenges. His style is quite ugly but has been effective. TIE (although I am being generous to Randy on this one only because its the Octagon so he should feel more at home)
5) Chin – Hands down, James Toney. Randy Couture has no chance of denting James’s chin with his hands…or with a baseball bat. A knee to the face? Hmmm, that would be interesting.
6) Dirty Boxing – I have read a thousand times on the internet that Randy invented “dirty boxing” and that Randy is going to dirty box James’s ears off. If Randy gets that straight up and close to James Toney, James is going to KO him with an uppercut before you can say “Captain America.” James is a KILLER in the clinch and is probably the best modern day fighter in this position, if not the entire history of boxing. Advantage Toney
7) Kicking – I can’t imagine James can kick very well but then again, neither can Randy. When is the last time Randy has thrown a kick with bad intentions? And I’ve never seen him throw kicks above the waist. It seems wise based on Trevor Berbick and Muhommad Ali’s embarrassing displays in fights with kickboxers that taking out a boxers legs is a perfect strategy. But Randy is a grappler not a kickboxer. Nevertheless, he definately will be the better kicker of the two. Advantage Randy
8) Grappling – Randy is as accomplished as it gets as a 3x Olympic Greco-Roman alternate. He also was a 2 or 3 time NCAA All-American in freestyle. He can wrestle with the best of them. And James can’t. Advantage Randy
9) Conditioning – Randy is known for his conditioning. James is known for his lack of conditioning. But James’s calmness allows him to conserve his energy. It doesn’t matter anyway because conditioning will not be a factor in this fight. I cannot see this fight going past the first round. Randy is either going to be KOed in the first exchange or Randy is going to get it to the ground and force James to tap.
10) Ground and Pound – I haven’t seen Randy GNP anyone effectively in a L-O-N-G time. His strikes lack zip and don’t really seem to do damage. His punches are kind of pitty-pat. Plus, James has a head of cement. However, James has no chance of being in a dominant position on the ground. Advantage – Randy
11) Submissions – No one is buying that James tapped out King Mo…except James probably does believe it. Advantage – Randy
Conclusion: Randy is 47 years old and has to get close to James in order to take him down and submit him. Not an easy thing to do against a man who is still very fast and possesses legendary boxing ability and is also BIGGER than Randy. And that is why I say IF Randy pulls this off, and I see this as a BIG IF, it will be far and away the best win of his career. James is a mean beast with zero fear and a warrior that has not been seriously hurt in any fight.
PS – James has always been a slow starter. This may REALLY help Randy.
can’t wait!!
It’s hard to compare the two. Even if James gets beat, it means nothing..firstly because Toney is not a pound for pound top guy, and secondly It would be like taking the top MMA guy and putting him in a boxing ring with a top level boxer. He’d get his butt kicked, and knocked out. The rules are different. Take a top MMA guy on the street and have him street fight with some guy, and he might get his butt kicked because on the street theres knives, bottles, whatever you can use.
Unless Randy does something stupid and tries to box with him, Toney has no chance in hell. This 15 minutes, one punch bullcrap, is for the faithfull, hopeful. And I’ll say it now, it’s ludicrous to think Toney will win. He can not in any way, stop A takedown, let alone Randy’s. He can not in any way stop ANY kind of GnP, let alone Randy’s. I don’t even think Toney would last in a dirty boxing type situation. Boxers just better hope that Randy doesn’t accept the rematch challenge. What would boxers say after they gt beat in their own arena?
honestly..no offense i appreciate everyones opinon..that is what makes the world go round..but imo couture will rag doll tubby..i mean toney if he gets his hands on him he will not have a snowballs chance in u know….period..same goes for couture if he tries to bang it will b bad news 4 sure
yea…ummm ok so i fully agree with your position on toney only needing one punch..very very true..but the fact that coutore having to work hard and consistently “work hard for his take downs” on a flabby big moth pos that has never had any wrestling exp let alone olympic qualifiying exp…YEA….. WAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAA YOU LOSE AMERICAN A##HOLE LOL
Mike – James has been on the canvas a few times in his amazingly long career but he has never been visibly hurt that I can remember….even against Sam Peter who has serious clubbing power. I honestly don’t think Randy could KO James even if he was allowed a Louisville Slugger in the cage. James has one of the best chins in the history of boxing and Randy is not exactly known for his punching power. Randy needs to bring it to the ground as fast as possible and tap James out. I know Randy is too smart to stand with James but if Randy’s Greco-Roman muscle memory kicks in and he tries to push James into the cage and dirty box, Dana is going to be front cover of Forbes magazine for worst decision by a CEO in this millenium as MMA looks ridiculous as “washed up boxer KO’s mma legend in 30 seconds.” And trust me, that is how it will be reported because for some reason 95% of the sports writers and general public are placing James in the category of fat, loud mouth, over the hill boxer with nothing to back it up and are still calling Randy a living legend instead of a 47 year old man whose skills have been declining. James has still looked very sharp in the last few years. Randy has not. This is a VERY precarious situation Dana has put himself in. And just so you all understand my position, IF Randy pulls this victory off..which is a BIG if…it will be reported as him beating a “fat, loud mouth, over the hill boxer with nothing to back it up” which couldn’t be further from the truth. Beating James Toney, in my opinion, would be Randy’s biggest victory of his career and hearkens back to the beginning of mma where different disciplines competed for supremecy. James Toney is a REAL “living legend.”
Candy – Penn/Edgar 2????? Let me use a boxing analogy here: Timothy Bradley against Junior Witter. Forget Witter’s awful performance against Zab Judah because everyone has a bad day. Junior Witter is one of the most underrated boxers of his era. He was very crafty and quick and like BJ Penn, he sometimes showed flashes of brilliance that made many boxers want nothing to do with him…and at other times he looked ordinary because of himself even in winning efforts. Sounds alot like BJ Penn, right? And what did it take to beat Junior witter? Timothy Bradley. Bradley was a young, up and coming fighter with a very solid amateur background who did EVERYTHING well but nothing exceptional and came up the hard way fighting everyone while he honed his craft. Sounds alot like Frankie Edgar.
I think Frankie Edgar has enough young lion in him to improve his game now that he is champion, much like tim Bradley is getting better with each fight. BJ is going to bring it…and bring it hard. But I think the young, complete fighter will weather the early storm and pick up where they left off by frustrating BJ by beating him to the punch and doing just a little more than BJ is willing to do. Its going to be a good one! PS – I am also from Jersey so i am pulling for Frankie but, as always, I remain objective. Haha
@Roger Dodger
so you see the odds getting worse for betters betting toney as the fight gets closer despite 90 % of the fighting world saying toney doesn’t have a chance??? he is 7 – 2 at on the betting sites that I have seen… I am wondering what you think of Penn and Edgar 2??? you as well rock,,, I am tkaing Toney that I know. but when I parlay him with edgar the payout more than doubles,,, who you guys got Penn or Edgar>?
Well I can tell you this, you obviously never watch boxing. Watch Mike Tyson in a clinch uppercut someone. Two rights to the body and right uppercut within .5 seconds. Now imagine that with 4oz gloves not 10oz gloves. James Toney is no exception. Especially with a 47 year old non boxer!
This fight will go like this. Bell, circle each other for about 30 seconds. James jabs here and there and Randy comes in to clinch, eating a short left hand. They clinch Randy takes him to the cage and tries to knee Toney. Toney then 3 quick left hooks to the body and Randy lets go and falls to his knees only to eat a clean right to the head. KO by liver punch, Toney wins.
The more I look at this fight the harder I find it for Couture to win.
One thing for certain. James Toney is NOT AFRAID AT ALL of Randy Couture. If it goes to the ground he can tap, big deal. I’d do that. But, I promise you this, Randy Couture is SCARED TO DEATH to stand in front of James Toney. As is anyone in MMA.
You will see the betting lines shift the closer we get to the fight as well. 4-1 underdog for Toney right now. By fight night it will be 2-1 at worst.
” The belt don’t make James Toney, James Toney make the belt” “I’m not no running fighter, I’m not no boxer , I’m not goin turn around from nobody, I don’t know how to do that, that’s for cowards, that’s not me, I stand there and Fight! I want blood.”/ “I’m a complete fighter, I don’t worry about nothing, I’m born to fight, they made to fight, they train to fight, that’s the difference between me and everybody else out there.” / “I just wanna fight the best opposition out there” nobody wanted to fight him in boxing since he decided bigger is not better. so he’s in the UFC to the fight the best… afew quotes from Toney. He’s always been the same. Lights out baby.
Yeah Rock, cool I hear ya… Hey to quote James Toney ” The Only fighter to beat James Toney is James Toney” I believe he said that after the Roy Jones fight, he said he was cockey and took Jones much too lightly… never the less, he did also admit to loosing the fight… Betters are being screwed, no one in the fighting world or let’s say 90% of the fighting world is not giving Toney he should be 10 – 1 easy. this is brutal … I rememeber bettin on a fight where Jake O’brien a good solid MMA fighter was fighting somebody no where near close to cutoure ability or status and he was + 350, the same numbers Toney is getting. Betters are being screwed. !!! Yeah about a year ago in septemeber Toney came to the conclusion that bigger was not better for him, since than he has been getting in shape using fres oquendo and that other dude he knocked out to get in shape, since then no one in boxing has wanted to fight him especially the other champs… heres the link of that interview.. check it… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtT4-FE3uhE&videos=3F106HQKNGo
People seem to forget, not only is james in good shape but people seem to think randy is jus going to take james down. well it’s harder to take someone down that is jus a bit shorter than you, its easier if they are much shorter or if they or much taller, but when the opponent is jus a bit shorter it is very hard,,, Toney has big strong legs and a very strong core which means strong base, not to mention a very strong upper body, I am hoping he can gain enough MMA to neutralize Cutoure and let his hands shine, and as he gets better at MMA which I hope he embraces a little more, he can continue to neutralize opponents and make them stand up… I gotta go, let me know what you think. respect and Peace.
@Rock
LOL Hey Rock! I love your analogy about Hot Girl at party is the cousin.
And your take on boxing is spot on! Thanks for your input.
Etienne – thanks bro
Allan – boxing isn’t dying but it is totally mismanaged by the promoters and sanctioning bodies. Such a shame. Its like meeting the hottest girl at the party and right before you seal the deal you find out she’s your cousin. In boxing, the best fights are rarely made and up and coming fighters are protected. Most fights are purposely mismatches to build records. In MMA, almost every fight is fun to watch and having an 0 in your record isn’t as important as putting on a good show against a worthy opponent.
Candy – nice to see you back. I am glad u took my comments as tongue in cheek…as they were meant.
I think, like you, I have stated that I am a HUGE James Toney fan and I agree that there have been periods during James’s career that he didn’t get the respect he deserves. However, I do try and be objective and also realize that James also had alot to do with it. A focused James Toney is like a focused Zab Judah…VERY dangerous for anyone. But an unfocused JT is like a unfocused Zab Judah but with an iron chin. Perhaps my Zab analogy isn’t the best because Zab hasn’t accomplished half of what James has but Zab is the fighter who comes to mind firstwhen I think of fighters who have wasted enormous amounts of talent.
Prime RJ is probably the only time James lost to a more talented fighter. Every other loss James has is more attributed to James not showing up than it is to him being beaten by a better fighter. And to James’s credit, Prime RJ is long gone and James is still a certified bad ass. However, I can’t overlook that James was caught 2 times cheating with steroids. That is not cool, fair or deserving of a pass.
James makes it easy for people to cast stones at him when he doesn’t show up in shape, looks disnterested while fighting and he doesn’t back up his mouth. He also never gives any of his opponents who have beaten him any credit.
I personally love his trash talking. And I am shocked that an ex-boxer like Dana, who is VERY knowlegable about boxing, thinks that a light hitting, cracked chin, 47 year old is going to walk through one of the purist boxers ever. I know MMA is different than boxing but James is physically bigger and faster than Randy despite being shaped like a bowling ball. James also hits harder, has excellent stamina and has a much better chin. That is an awful lot of pros for a fighter with the only con being James hasn’t fought in a cage and is one dimensional. But his one dimension of boxing is literally poetry in motion.
So, like you Candyman, I give James his much deserved props. He is MUCH more worthy of legendary status since he has achieved what almost no one else in the sport of boxing has, which has a few hundreds years of rich history than Randy deserves to be called in a sport that is basically brand new. I still want Randy to shut his mouth and eat him alive but there is no way in hell I’d put money against James Toney.
I also think that the odds should be hire against toney… He should be 10 -1 especially the way alot of fans, sports critics, and MMA anylist are talking about this… quit screwing the betters bookies… should be 10 – 1.
Lol ” Rock ” I like you rou’re funny, lol 4 real… but anyways. I don’t care what a magazine says, everybody has been trying to descredit Toney his whole career… I mean the advertisements for this fight,,, Toney 3 division world champ and randy 5 time champ… when toney is a 6 division world champ and all of those multiple times. Read Tron’s statement very very true… Toney will forever be a boxer, but i hope after he beats cutoure he continues to train MMA and embraces it more, some people are quick learners and natural fighters, I think Toney is. I think he will have enough tools to neutralize Randy and let his hands shine, after randy I hope he gets better and better in different facets of MMA to in order to continue to let his hands shine, because the competition only gets tougher. .. For some reason every other art gets great respect from MMA except boxing. I don’t know why but it is what it is. James is a great fighter and for Dana to say the things he’s said since Toney signing for the fight. he deserves to get punched for speaking that way of a fighting great. He would never say what he said, about a great wrestler or ju jitsu guy coming to MMA. Toneys here cuz no one in boxing wanna fight, Toney jus wanna fight the best. So he’s come to the UFC. Lights Out Baby
Respect and Peace.
oh.. and @Rock I loved the “…and Candyman disappears.. like the last piece of chocolate at fat camp” comment. Rock on.
As frustrating as it is at times when I go back and watch a boxing match, and I see them start hugging, I think “Oh!! Knee! Takedown! Elbow!” Sometimes, due to the popularity of MMA, boxing can be “boring” or uneventful, but I honestly don’t see boxing dying- I love watching boxing. We watch UFC and things like that all the time, and are so used to it’s techniques, fighters, and everything.. but you’ve got to go oldschool once in a while.. oldschool rocks! I honestly know shit about boxing history and all of that, I find it so interesting when you guys “come out of no where” and know so much about it.. I know this will probably start a fight.. but in my opinion, boxing seems so much more technical than MMA.. another reason why I love a good boxing match. In the old days of UFC, and even nowadays, you see way too many people winning by the “bully” methods.. holding the person down and pounding on them.. as much technique that goes into groundwork (trust me, I know).. it it just as uneventful as a boring boxing match… People love to see people get submitted, punched, kicked, that’s just the way it is.. the thing is, way too many people are resorting to the bully method in mixed martial arts.. even Georges St.Pierre,.. who was once considered one of the only “true” artists left,.. is now resorting to taking the people down and dragging out the victory. I love mixed martial arts, and I am going to be training my ass off in the next couple of months, but for entertainment value, I think I might have to start watching boxing again.. because all of these wrestlers are boring the shit out of me… you could at least hit the person if you’re going to lay on him… I’m waiting for the Pride yellow card for stalling to come into effect again… People like to see people get hit.. and there are so many more punches thrown in boxing than in MMA.. that’s all they can do… and these fighters have so much technique, it’s amazing to watch every once in a while, after being subjected to the untrained, lack of technique, and boring wrestling matches we are seeing in the UFC today. Boxing has been pushed out of the spotlight, but it is still there.. it is not publicized all over the place as it once was, and as MMA seems to be, at least all over the internet.. but for the oldschool, hardcore, and true fans of the sport, boxing will live on.
@Alan Blast
@Perceiver
No dirty boxing ,just takedowns and ground and pound.
If no one has an opinion,I guess that answers my question. LOL
If James Toney pulls the upset,will that be enough to revive a dying sport in boxing?
(By the way,I WAS a boxing purist from 1970-2000).Anyone have an opinion?
…like the last piece of chocolate at Fat Camp.
And Candyman disappears…
“Ring magazine called Jones’ performance the most dominant of any big fight in 20 years” – referring to Jones v. Toney. Guess I’m not too far off. That brings us back to 1974. And don’t even bother with Schmeling v. Louis as a bigger blast from the past. Louis was supposed to destroy Scmeling in the first fight and got starched in Round 12. Schmeling also had already been beaten. As I am sure you know, Louis came back and got revenge with a first round stoppage. Yes, it was a great win for Joe Louis but hardly James Toney at 46-0 versus 27-0 Roy Jones.
Candyman – Thank God for youtube. Here is a link to Toney-RJ so everyone can see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nbHy2KjhY There is NO WAY this is not a legit knockdown. RJ threw a punch. Punch lands. James falls back…and back…until he is sitting in the corner and the ring post is the only thing holding him up. That, my friend, is a knockdown in boxing. And if you don’t admit that, then your credibility here as an objective person is simply called into question. And I will again state that I have NEVER seen a fight between the #1 and #2 P4P fighters on the planet, in their prime, be so one-sided. Don’t take this as me trying to knock James…James fought very tough that fight. However, RJ simply outclassed him in every area. Spinks-Tyson and Calzaghe-Lacy were serious beatdowns on BIG stages, just not P4P 1 vs. P4P 2. If you can give me an example of a fight of this magnitude that was more one-sided, I will gladly admit it if you are correct. I’ll wait for your response.
And I haven’t watched Peter-Toney in awhile. I will go back and watch them tonight. My recollection, as you pointed out, was alot of rounds were VERY close and hard to judge. Toney was very accurate but conservative with his punches and Peter was much more active with volume punching. When you do have those kinds of rounds, inevitably, it is difficult to score, so it isn’t hard to make a decent case for either man. I also agree that judges should give more even rounds than they do BUT if I HAVE to give the nod to a fighter in this scenario, I usually will go with the busier fighter who tends to start the round strong and finishes strong. I try to reward consistency which is definately a form of ring generalship. And as much as I give credit to a fighter with amazing defense, like James has, no one ever hurt his opponent with great defense. So I lean to the fighter who is busier. I also remember, as you also say, that Toney-Peter 2 was much easier to score and I think it rightly went to Sam Peter. But more than anything, those 2 fights proved that James was a legitimate heavyweight with a legitimate heavyweight punch and a serious chin. I still don’t understand why many “experts” say James doesn’t have alot of power. That is simply absurd. He hits VERY hard. BTW, even though James is one of my all-time favorite fighters, I stay objective. He definately lost to Dave Tiberi and to Hasim Rahman. As talented as James is, sometimes he just doesn’t show up. The decision James won against Tiberi was so horrendous it led to a federal investigation into the corruption of boxing. And Hasim isn’t half the fighter that James is BUT he deserved to win that night and got screwed.
So it seems we disagree on a few things BUT we both give James Toney his just due. He is a VERY bad and talented fighter and Randy better take him down without a glove being landed on him or the UFC is going to look silly.
But then again, any objective, informed fight fan knows that if James lands a blow, its over. And if Randy takes James down to the ground, its over. So, both guys can win on any given night which means this fight will do very little to settle the Boxing v. MMA debate that some people insist on arguing.
Right now betting odds are averaging 5:1, favoring Couture. My bet’s on Toney.
I agree with a few statements here. For a time, I believed boxers did not respect cage fighting ( As a martial artist, I refuse to call this fighting MMA,) enough. It appears that after becoming a huge success and attraction, cage fighting fans don’t understand professional boxers. Just because they don’t wrestle or submit doesn’t mean they are not warriors. The ability to punch, slip, throw counter punches for up to 15 rounds is nothing to laugh at. I have competed in many facets of martial arts, including western style boxing. In cage fighting, you have to think about the shoot, the kicks, and a punch. The argument is that a cage fighter has many more things to defend against than a boxer because of those dimensions. I disagree. Boxing is a chess game where every inflection of your body can give you away. Toney in particular is not only a skilled boxer, but has enough nastiness to compete in cagefighting. He is mean. He is still powerful, and I’m sorry but Couture has never been hit like Toney will hit him.
What he heck? Uhh… Toney WON the first fight from any objective standpoint, period.
He did lose the second fight though.
& what is with the advertisements??? They advertise Toney as a 3 division wolrd champ or 3 time world champ or something. he is a 6 division world champion with numerous reigns.
@Rock
Even the announcers in the Jones fight went and looked at the replay of the knock down and even the announcers said that should have not been a knock down, I jus fuckin watche dit. & I jus recently watched both Peter’s fight and Toney won the first fight for sure,,, the crowd knew it, the announcers knew and James Toney knew it… Now the second fight with Peter’s was much closer,, but here’s where it went wrong… It is possible to have even rounds, but instead of giving even rounds they jus magically gave those rounds to Peter’s hence the discrminition and prejudice for Toney being over wieght. they must have figured if they keep making him loose fights he’ll retire, but guess what all it did was make Toney realize that sports are politics and he had to be in great shape to even have a chance. You say Peter’s had more effort, 50 % of his punches were slap punches, while everything Toney threw was pwoer and speed… plus, not only everything Toney threw was power and speed, he often made Peter’s look silly making him mis punch after punch. Yes Jones won that fight, but to say it was one of the most one sided fights, well. your jus wrong. Your just as bad as the judges, this fuckin guy, the only reason you say Toney should have lost against Peters is because it was scored like that by the judges. Go back and watch the fights, ACcount for , offense, defense and initiative . you will see Toneys offense far superior to Peter’s his defense/ slipping and dodging all kinds of punches and his initiative, Toney carried the fights alot more than you think… you obviously didn’t watch them and or haven’t watched them in a while.
Candyman, I love James as much as you BUT let’s be honest, bro…Sam Peter deserved both of those victories against James. James was not busy enough in those fights and Sam showed with his efforts that he wanted to win more in both fights. But you are correct in pointing out that Sam Peter, a very heavy handed slugger, could not dent James’ iron chin. Also, as a sidenote, RJJ schooled James in probably the most masterful, one-sided fight that was ever done on a stage that large. Remember, James was most boxing experts P4P choice and was the favorite going in. RJJ was the consensus #2 P4P guy. RJJ dominated James in every way possible when both were in their primes. And that knockdown scored by RJ was definately legit. James wasn’t hurt but he also didn’t trip. RJ’s speed caused that knockdown…but I digress.
Oliver – Such a pleasure reading your breakdown. I love Randy as much as I love James but for 2 totally different reasons. Randy is my favorite “good guy” and James is my favorite villian. But I cringe when I read posters talking about Randy inventing “dirty boxing” on the inside. These posters obviously never saw James work on the inside. Like you said, he can bust a person up with the quickest, sneakiest, hardest uppercuts while in a clinch and wearing boxing pillows on his hands. Imagine how little space he will need to get 4 oz gloves through???? If Randy ties up James and tries to clinch against the cage, he will be knocked out cold within a minute. And a few posters pointed out body shots. James has to land ONE shot to the ribs or face and its OVER. Its that simple. James’ bodyshots are devastating.
I will be rooting for Randy but I totally think Dana White TOTALLY miscalculated this one. Randy is TOO old, too shop worn, and as already pointed out, was never that explosive even when he was young. Horrible matchup. All I can say is, Randy better take him down quickly and submit him. I would love to see Randy get on top of James and punish him for 4:59 before submitting him but I can’t believe REAL experts and oddsmakers are discounting James Toney’s skillset. He is absolutely one of boxings GREATEST fighters ever. I honestly think James should be the favorite. His one dimension is much more dangerous than anything Randy is bringing to the table. And let’s again be honest, Randy is Captain America and a great storybook legend BUT he is quite predictable and not exactly what I would call a well-rounded fighter. I hope Randy plans on fighting smart. One mistake and its Lights Out!
Toney was discriminated and there was an extreme prejudice against Toney in those Peter fights for being a little over wieght. Toney no question should have won the first fight. & He should have won the second fight by split decision. those are his only two losses in his Heavyweight career and his only losses in over 12 years. & two losses he shoudln’t of had. He won both of those fights!!! Take those two losses away form his record and he would have 4 losses instead of 6… and let me tell you something, you can think what you want that people fall off and die at 40, but Toney is as powerful as ever and as quick and slick defensively as ever. He’s been training every day for by the time the fight happens 8 months & maybe longer? I don’t know, but neither do you!!!. He’s a 6 division world champion and current heavyweight champ. You can hate because your ignorant, so keep hating and at UFC 118 it’s light’s out baby. and keep hating every fight he has, as he wins. see he wasn’t a bad fighter when you castrated him for being over wieght, now he is serious and he is in great shape and you treat him like he’s still over wieght, so go ahead haters hate. Toney has never been Knocked out, Hell he has never really been knocked down in 22 years and over 80 pro boughts with over a 60% knock out ratio. The two knock downs that are on his record were both trip / pushes. The one against Jones JR in 96 was a trip and the one agaiinst Peters was a push / trip… Toney came to a decision after deciding that dealing with the prejudice and discrimination of being over weight was loosing him fights, his decision was ” Bigger is not Better for me” on september 13 th 2009… Since then he has changed his diet completely and has turned around his whole athletic life. He did this to make sure he could fight the best competition and unify the Heavyweight titles. but since then no one has wanted to fight him, so he has come to the UFC to fight because no heavyweights want to take the risk of loosing there title… He’s here to fight, believe that, and he is serious, believe that. I love both boxing and MMA and like and have respect for Randy, but come UFC 118. It’s Light’s Out Baby.
@Dan Baker Toney is not Flabby, Toney is very muscular and bulky just not ripped, and he doesn’t have to be… And by the time this fight happens he will have been training MMA for 8months everyday. he will be able to defend the takedown and stop Randy from coming in with strikes.
This posters know alot about MMA and basically NOTHING about Boxing.
Such a person cannot even produce an informed opinion.
I have watched Boxing since the 80′s and the UFC since it first started in 93′ (if i remember correctly)
I bought UFC 1 for 15 bucks. lol
I have been reading some of these comments. The height difference, how is it an asset for Couture? I say it is a liability. why? Couture WILL get koed if he tries to grab anywhere above the waist (and feinting won’t help, Couture is fighting a Boxer, they have PHDs in feinting). But to shoot below the waist he has to bring his 6 foot 1 inch frame under Toney’s 5 foot 9 inch frame, which will be several inches smaller because Toney always squats low when he fights. He has to do this without eating an uppercut. Toney remember has lightning fast reflexes and has been training with the best shooters in the world. Couture didn’t have lightning fast reflexes even in his prime.
This is an impressive article in it’s ability to analyze this situation and not simply flow with popular assumptions.
Randy Couture is a Greco Roman Wrestler, a group that practices body locks and clinches, and that isn’t known for it’s expertise in shooting. Yet Randy will have to shoot in on Toney (and shoot LOW ) to prevent getting his head knocked off when he tries to grab him. Meanwhile Toney is training with guys who are EXPERTS in shooting like Mo lawal and Dean Lister. Will Toney be able to time the shoot? Well Toney’s reflexes are absurdly faster than Couture’s, and he is used to timing jabs (which are nothing more than flicks). Here he is timing Couture’s entire body rushing in.
MMA has never seen a Boxer of Toney’s caliber before, and particularly one that has trained for months to learn how to land counter punches off of a shoot. Ray Mercer is the best Boxer that has been in MMA up until now, but James Toney is the current IBA, NABO heavyweight champion, Ray Mercer was last champion 20 YEARS AGO and probably shouldn’t even still be in a ring. Furthermore Mercer’s one loss comes at the hands of a guy who Mercer states he naturally assumed wanted to stand and brawl with him given his reputation, but who surprisingly took him down.
Make no mistake, this fight is a big deal, and I’m going to have to side with the prediction of the author of this article. Keep in mind that Toney doesn’t even have to end the fight with a blow to the head. Believe me, a clean hook right into the ribs by a professional heavyweight Boxer wearing 4 ounce gloves can easily end a fight.
That’s his record in the UFC. If you look at the record on UFC.com, it says his record is 18-10 yet only 22 fights are listed. Outside of the UFC he’s been submitted by Valentijn Overeem, Mikhail Illoukhine, and Enson Inoue. Combined with his submission due to strikes loss to Rizzo, that’s four losses by submission to Couture’s three wins by submission
Oliver: “He’s lost more fights by submission than he’s won. ”
According to his record on ufc.com he’s lost 1 fight by submission.
I’m just trying to be civil because it’s branching off from debate to name-calling and bickering. When things like this venture into the realm of the personal insult, I begin to back away and just let whatever’s left of this discussion run its course without me. But since you asked…
At the end of the day, I think Toney isn’t getting nearly enough credit and that’s what bothers me. As much as I love Randy Couture, and rest assured I’m a huge fan of his, someone like Toney is just a bad match-up for him. I’m convinced that people just aren’t that familiar with Toney, which is why they bring up things like dirty boxing. Toney has thrown bombs from literally inches away, just watch some of his fights. He’s great at ducking, dodging, and throwing massive counter-punches. Toney is also an incredibly versatile striker and has some sick body punches.
The whole “anyone can get knocked out” thing, you’re just completely missing the point. That completely undermines Toney’s forty-four career knockouts, he’s not “anybody”, he’s been KO’ing people since 1988. When it comes to pro boxing, you just don’t get much more high-level than James Toney. 83 professional fights, 72 wins, 44 KO’s. “Anyone can get knocked out” makes it sound like the only way he can win the fight is if he has luck on his side. Please, people, just watch some of Toney’s fights. It’s just not realistic at all to compare Toney to Paul Daley and Art Jimmerson. As good as Daley’s striking is, Toney’s is on another planet. Compared to Jimmerson he might as well be in another galaxy.
About the wrestling, I’m actually giving you guys that one, I don’t know why this keeps getting brought back up. If it goes to the ground, the only thing Toney can realistically do is survive until he either pulls something out of his ass or the round ends. I just think that Toney will be able to survive, based on the heart he’s shown throughout his career and based on his rock-solid chin.
He’s controversial, foul-mouthed, and I can absolutely understand why so many people hate him, but Toney has the ability to back it all up. And I think he’s going to do just that, and really surprise a lot of people. 2010 has been filled with so many upsets, Toney winning this one wouldn’t surprise me at all.
Being a person who truly does not want to back up Lesnar.. there’s no frigging way you can compare James Toney to Brock Lesnar. If you watch the UFC, all you really see, unless all you watch is Anderson “the staller” Silva, or Mauricio Rua, almost everyone who is at the elite level, is a crazy wrestler. Yeah, Lesnar only had one fight before he was in the UFC, Toney has had some practice.. so in that respect, they are the same. That’s it. If you look throughout UFC history, from Royce Gracie vs. that guy who walked in with one boxing glove on, to Josh Koschek vs Paul Dailey, the guy who can hold down a pure striker, wins. Even if Toney pulled the win over Couture out of his ass, there’s no way in hell he would ever win another fight in his life, in the UFC.. Kimbo anyone?…
Now that I got that out of the way, you truly don’t understand how frustrating, and tiring Couture’s style is for other fighters. Couture has always been fighting people who are years younger than him,.. now, just as him fighting Coleman, he’ll be fighting someone his age.. and when it comes down to it, no one can compare to his conditioning at that age, who is fighting. Yeah, no one doubts that Toney can knock Couture out, so yeah, you’re right about that… no one ever saw Nogueira get knocked out, then Valasquez came around, no one thought Couture would box against Liddell, or Sylvia, and he dominated the boxing.. anyone can get knocked out. For all we know, Koschek will knock out St.Pierre, anyone can get knocked out, it’s not like you can control the fact that you’re going to black out when you get hit or not, so it’s not like you can say Couture will, or will not get knocked out with one or two punches.
Yeah, we all have our opinions, and we can’t say someone is wrong, all we can do is find holes in people’s arguments, and you make it sound like a pure boxer will be too much for one of the veterans of the sport, who, by the way, boxed, and wrestled for the army. The thing is, if you’re going to run down one of the veterans of the sport, you’d better back it up better than to say Couture has been knocked out. The fact of the matter is, Toney doesn’t deal with wrestling, submissions, and has never been able to deal with state-of-the-art dirty boxing, especially not from the man who made it famous.
I can see that you’re trying to end the argument, and it makes sense, but if you run down one of the best in the history of the UFC, you have to expect to have people who aren’t happy about it, and no matter how much you try to settle the differences, you started the argument, you can’t expect to take the first shot, and get the last one as well. Sounds like one of those people who start an argument, can’t handle it so they try to end it, but still have to get the last word in.. doesn’t work that way..
@Oliver Saenz
Lesnar had exactly one throw-away fight before immediately jumping into the UFC, so yeah, it’s pretty much the same thing. Unless you’re trying to say that the one fight he had beforehand, against a total can, was good experience and prepared him for the UFC. In regards to age, you’ve definitely got a point. But Toney remains an athlete that is already famous, somewhat controversial, and undoubtedly great at one aspect of MMA, and his true test will be seeing how he adapts to all the other aspects. Sounds a whole hell of a lot like Lesnar to me.
When it comes to Big Timmy, he’ll always be the best of the worst, the Heavyweight champion during what was one of the weakest UFC Heavyweight divisions ever. Plus it’s been three years since that fight, and look at what Couture has accomplished: he beat Gonzaga, and he looked great doing it. He then took quite a long time off, lost two straight, dropped down to Light Heavy, won a fight against Vera that was not without its fair share of controversy, and won against a demoralized, far-past-his-prime Mark Coleman.
You’re acting as if Couture should be next in line for a shot at the title. Me, I think this is the beginning of the end all over again. I get that you’re a Couture fan, and I am one too, but I just don’t see him winning this fight.
Nothing you say will likely change my opinion, and I have a feeling that nothing I say will change yours. Perhaps we should leave it at that?
Since we are now referencing Tim Sylvia, please youtube his fight with Ray Mercer. Tim’s soul was halfway out of his body after that punch. James Toney will have a similar highlight knockout and will send Randy into retirement. James Toney via KO @ 45 seconds of round 1.
@Oliver Saenz
You Said this:
“Couture will always have his dominant wrestling to fall back on, but consider this fact as well: this is going to be a Heavyweight fight, and Couture has always been a small Heavyweight. Toney will more than likely show up to this fight heavier than Couture, meaning that Couture will have to work hard and consistently work hard to score his takedowns. ”
I’m questioning how you came up with this silly garbage. Randy couture Spent 25 minutes man handling Tim Silvia who CUTS weight to get to 265. Yet Couture coming out of retirement controlled the fight taking the BIGGER man to the ground over and over. Yes he was tired but he still succeeded taking him down.
And yes I can question your Judgement of : “And Randy Couture is getting knocked out.” Without questioning James Toney’s Skills and Chances. But what I meant was, how you CAME to that Judgement.
I can think Toney will win with out agreeing with your absurd conclusions to facts you didn’t thoroughly look into. I’m happy a boxer of James Toney’s caliber is coming into MMA, this will bring a lot more boxers into MMA. All the better for us.
Oh, and Lesnar fought outside the UFC once before coming to the UFC. So, not the same thing. And Lesnar was 30 not 41.
And check this Pros vs Joes
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12b89_randy-couture-pros-vs-joes_sport
Granted the Joes aren’t anywhere close to James Toney. I know these aren’t real matches. This is just showing that Randy knows some submissions.
hahaha… I agree with most of you, the thing is, Couture doesn’t HAVE to take the fight to the ground to control the fight. We all know Randy Couture, we all know his best weapons are his wrestling, and his dirty boxing. Boxers are known to be separated when they start hugging each other, because nothing happens with boxers in that range.. in mixed martial arts, and especially with Randy Couture, a lot can be done in this range. Couture has controlled people like Silvia, Gonzaga, and even, for a short time, Lesnar, against the cage. Toney has no clue what to do in that situation, everyone who ends up against the cage with Couture gets tired, and extremely frustrated. After Couture does this for a while, kneeing, elbowing, shoulders, punches, he will easily get the takedown everyone is expecting. There is no doubt in my mind that Toney can easily knock Couture out. I’m just hoping that will not happen. I think that if Couture follows his normal gameplan, he can, and will pull off the win. I really don’t want to see Couture get knocked out, and really don’t want to see him have to retire because some over-the-hill boxer felt he had no other way to keep his career going. How about we bring back Foreman? What was he when he last fought, 60? I can see the interest, but I really don’t like the fact that all of these midlife crisis athletes feel they need to prove themselves because they can’t, or aren’t doing their sport anymore. Randy, I hope you pull this one off. I’m looking forward to another Randy Couture 101, hopefully with Toney being sent back over to his rightful place, with his tail between his legs.
I hate to dissect a post like this, but this really stuck out at me.
“I’m not questioning James Toney’s abilities or Chances, I am questioning your judgement. ”
I don’t see how you can have one without the other, since my judgment is that Toney will win BECAUSE of his abilities. My judgement is that Toney’s long years of knocking people out will allow him to KO Randy the second Couture gives him the opportunity to do so, and that his long years of hard-fought wars will allow him to survive without getting stopped, whether by TKO or submission.
About Randy’s submission skills and Toney’s submission defense, we’ll honestly just have to wait and see. Who knows what could be learned in six months? I’m not saying Toney will be busting out the gogoplata, but I do think that you can learn some pretty good submission defense for the basic submissions (which are the only submissions Couture has ever used) given the right training partners. I just don’t think that Toney is a Christmas present waiting to be opened should Couture try a submission. I’m giving Toney the benefit of the doubt on this one.
In regards to Toney trash-talking MMA, I honestly think that’s just James Toney being James Toney. It always seems like he has a bone to pick with somebody over something. I personally have found his pre-fight interviews wildly entertaining.
At the end of the day, Toney deserves a lot of respect for immediately stepping up to the plate and taking on one of the best in the sport. He’s honestly in the same position as Brock Lesnar was when he first came in to the UFC, and that’s not a hyperbole. Like Lesnar, Toney is fantastic at one aspect of the game, and instead of testing the waters with a few throw-away fights, Toney is jumping right into the shark tank with relatively little experience in all the other aspects of MMA. Even if he loses, it’ll have been one hell of a ride. And I think the internet would explode if he won. Either way, it should be a pretty wild fight.
@George
Couture can shoot and will shoot if he feels that is the only way to win. And hopefully Toney will be ready cause I’m excited either way.
@Oliver Saenz
I’m agreeing with you that Toney can knock Randy out if he gets a shot. BUT the only reason Brock had a chance is because Randy could not play the ground game with him. SAME with Chuck Liddell, Liddell’s take down defense was good enough to keep it on the feet.
Randy doesn’t need a KO, he only needs a TKO (Ref Stoppage), Submission, or Decision. Randy’s submissions only need to be good enough to beat some one that has only been training to defend against them for 6 months.
James is 5’10 he’d look bulky at 185 lbs.
I’m not questioning James Toney’s abilities or Chances, I am questioning your judgement. And the only reason anyone trash talks Toney is because of the trash talk he has thrown at MMA.
What about the Face Couture has been clipped and dropped in 4 of his last five fights by Noguiera,Brandon Vera and Brock Lesnar, Gabriel gonzaga too . None of them have the power of a world calls boxer like Toney. Toney Tapped out King MO Lawal in training by blocking a shoot take down and grappling him and squeezing in a standing guillotine choke.Dean Lester almost got submitted by James Toney. Don’t get me Wrong I am a Randy Couture fan but James Toney is no joke. James is a jerk who loves hurting people and Randy may be in for a butt kicking Light out. Plus Couture doesn’t shoot for a Take down he using clinching with Greco Roman Wrestling. So in order to Clinch he has to get close enough to grab Toney that’s were it going to be his mistake. Toney has never been KO-ed or TKO-ed in boxing. If all those Tough as nails boxers can’t hurt him than no way any MMA fighter can either. I think Toney can Easily KO anyone is 205 and 265lbs in UFC. Before you Reply wait till Agsusht 28th then reply lol I want you to witness the Butt kicking lol.
Well, I appreciate the interest this has garnered. I don’t want to fill up the entire page with a response to every comment, so here’s a general response taken from some of the responses I’ve gotten so far.
In regards to weight, I don’t know about you, but Toney has looked MASSIVE in all the pre-fight interviews I’ve seen him in recently. I’m talking at least 240. Doesn’t matter if he’s flabby, Roy Nelson says hello. Even if Toney is rocking the beer gut, those fists are dynamite in four ounce gloves.
Nothing is impossible, but for me, the odds of Randy KO’ing Toney are about as good as the odds of Toney submitting Randy. Couture’s striking IS NOT as good as it once was, it’s been almost three years since his last TKO. Add to this the fact that ALL of Couture’s finishes have come by TKO, he’s never stone-cold KO’d somebody in his entire career. Again, I have to bring up the fact that Toney has never been KO’d once in OVER TWENTY YEARS. If you put him against someone like Junior Dos Santos, then yeah, I think Toney might become separated from his consciousness. But Couture straight knocking him out when the man has been boxing at a professional level since 1988 and never been knocked out or even TKO’d once? People really think Couture will be the one to end that streak? I sure as hell don’t.
If Toney lands one DECENT punch, Couture will go down in the same heap that Brock Lesnar put him in. There wasn’t any kind of grappling or struggling or etc. etc., Couture went down, stayed down, and Lesnar pounced on the opportunity. If Toney lands one GOOD punch, Couture is getting KO’d right then and there.
In regards to submissions and such, you’ve got me there, but everyone seems to be over-hyping Couture’s submission skills due to his recent RNC over Coleman. Try to remember, Couture has three submission wins on his record. In almost thirty fights, he’s submitted people only three times. He’s lost more fights by submission than he’s won. People that are saying that he’ll win by armbar or RNC or etc. etc., those are some of the most basic moves in the game. There’s no way Toney hasn’t been training against submissions. I don’t see him reversing or anything like that, but I see him surviving Randy’s attempts.
That’s all Toney has to do once this thing goes to the ground: survive. His chin will protect him, his submission defense (however small it may be) should be enough for him to just wait it out until the end of the round, or until Couture gets bored and tries to GNP some more.
At the end of the day, there are two reasons why I’m picking Toney to win. The first and of course the most important one is because I truly believe he can. But the second one is definitely because so many people are outright trashing him and making him out to be some type of scrub or sacrificial lamb.
James Toney is a beast. He’s always been a beast. Even if he loses this fight, he’ll continue to be a beast.
As I said before, all Toney has to do is survive Randy’s game and make Randy play his. I can see Toney surviving the GNP and submission attempts even if he loses a couple of rounds in the process. But in spite of the championships he’s won, the caliber of opponents he’s faced, the legacy he’s leaving behind, the praise he rightfully deserves, despite all of that…I simply DO NOT see Randy Couture taking one good, clean James Toney bomb-punch right on the chin and still remaining upright.
And as always, if I’m proven wrong you guys can call me on it. At the end of the day, I’ll be a man about it and take my serving of humble pie with a smile. But this is my opinion, I’m sticking to it, and if it gets proven right, I’m going to love every minute of it.
All that is being said here is, if Toney can hit him, Randy will be knocked out. That is the only tool Toney has apparently. So, all Couture has to do is shoot for a take-down too low for Toney to swing.
If Toney gets punches in, James wins.
If Couture gets a take-down in, Randy wins.
Either way MMA fan’s win. If James wins and brings boxing into MMA, the fans get to see more expert strikers. If Couture wins more boxing fans will have watched one of their best go down to an older man. Then More money will be given to MMA companies and more boxers will chase the money.
Bring it on.
Great points, but Randy has far more experience boxing and striking than Toney has with take-downs, catch wrestling and LEG kicks. Watch the fight and remember my post. Randy will leg kick the crap out of him and then pin him to the cage. After a few knees and elbows he will take top position on the ground and it will all be over. The variety of attacks and the conditioning needed for MMA will be too much for James Toney. Captain America wins again!!!
Could not agree less. He doesn’t have fifteen minutes to land one good punch. He has the time between when the bell rings and Couture tries his first takedown (probably closer to 30 seconds). Once Toney is on the ground he’ll likely be submitted because he lacks the wrestling and jiu jitsu skills to defend himself on the ground against someone with Couture’s skills and experience.
Coleman didn’t lose his fight because he was demoralized before he entered the ring. He lost because his only weapon is the takedown and ground and pound. This was nullified by Couture because he is a superior wrestler (and dirty boxer) at this stage in his career.
i feel that james toney is not what he use to be but is till able to hang with the best…. i believe he will knock randy Couture out when he shoots in for a take down and he will eat a mean hook or uppercut….
He has a punchers chance yes. But he needs to knock him clean out in order to win this fight I think. If randy can clinch while rocked and find time to rest he will still finish the fight in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Will not argue about his boxing credentials, but he can’t learn enough MMA to beat randy cotoure in this short of time.
Randy has taken guys down that were 30+ pounds heavier than him while he was 43. Those people prepared for Randy knowing what he was capable of doing. They also knew how to fight off the ground. Randy still beat them.
Randy will take James to the ground or get knocked out in the first minute. If James gets taken to the ground he will not get up until he lost or till the bell rings. Randy has only been knocked out when he could not take the opponent to the ground. Randy won’t be tired taken down someone 3 times in an entire fight. He will be tired if he tries to TKO him.
Also, Boxers are susceptible to many submissions. Randy Couture doesn’t need to be a submission specialist to get an arm bar, rear naked choke, or many other more wrestling oriented chokes, holds, submissions.
Toney only has a “Striker’s Chance”. No, you’re right “Puncher’s Chance” cause he won’t be kicking. Randy has a well rounded chance. Decision, Submission, TKO, Randy has done all and Toney is susceptible to all, even TKO. Toney can’t bob and weave with his head against the ground.
The betting odds are so ridiculous against James that I’m sad to live in Iceland and not have ability to bet on his victory.
Remember 4oz gloves!!! Randy goes for an take-down, James lands couple of body punches Randy drops his hands and bang, its lights out. James win, by knock-out in the end of the first round and Randy properly not even taking him down even once, and all-in-all a new page on cage fighting as been turned.
Sorry, Oliver, but I have to help you out with a few facts.
Couture as a heavy weight weighed in at around 228lbs. James is around 217 according to some websites. Couture is 6’1″ where as Toney is 5’10″. Couture is CUT, Toney is Flabby.
Couture is one of the best takedown artists in MMA. Toney has used a boxing stance, in the last 22 years, which would make him easy to take down. Toney will have to reinvent himself enough to stop an elite wrestler from taking him down. I don’t see Randy having to take Toney down more than 3 times. Once per round. So, you thinking Randy will be tired is a complete joke. Randy holds the record of Championship fights (5 Rounds X 5 minutes). I wouldn’t doubt that he has spent more time in the octagon than anyone else.
This is not to say that I think he will have a guaranteed win but I doubt your calculation skills. Randy was Knocked out by people he was FORCED to stand with. Brock Lesnar, MUCH bigger and excellent wrestler and Chuck Liddell, Superb take down defense and wrestler himself.
Your outcome may not be wrong but how you got there was absolutely ill-conceived.
Could not agree more.